The fallout from Fallout 4 (Discussion Thread)

[Elerneron]

You know something doesn't jive with me:

• Fallout 4 received record sales figures.
  • Now it could be that a lot of people bought the game that didn't end up liking it I suppose.  That leads to the question, since the majority of the sales were through Steam, and they have a guarantee on the game why didn't the haters return the game for a refund?
• Then there's the fact that FO4 broke the record for the number of people playing a Non-Valve game on Steam.
  • Maybe that was just a bunch of people figuring out that they hated the game all at the same time?  If that's the case, that's quite a coincidence.
• It also has consistently high reviews pretty much across the board.
• Bethesda is calling it their most successful title to date, and the numbers support that.

 

So anyway my point it that there are all the indications that Fallout 4 is an excellent game; and my personal feeling is that it is the best game that Bethesda has ever made . . . so why do I see so much more negative things about the game on the various forums than I see positive things?   Are the others who love the game afraid of being called Bethesda Apologists?   Are they intimidated by the vitriol of those who hate it?  Let's face it, some of the FO4 haters are . . . violently opposed to the game.

 

WTF is going on?  Where are my fellow FO4 fans?

[ritualclarity]

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Now it could be that a lot of people bought the game that didn't end up liking it I suppose.  That leads to the question, since the majority of the sales were through Steam, and they have a guarantee on the game why didn't the haters return the game for a refund?

Many played it too long expecting it to be better. They were trying to relive the old games and hoped that this was what the wanted. After a set of time they can't return it. Others might be lazy and still the final few like myself was waiting for the mods to be created.

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Then there's the fact that FO4 broke the record for the number of people playing a Non-Valve game on Steam.

• Maybe that was just a bunch of people figuring out that they hated the game all at the same time?  If that's the case, that's quite a coincidence.

It was one of the most anticipated games in the past year and probably a very long time. This is the reason combined with a massive amount of PR and those that wanted to play an new version of a game they loved all converged to massive amounts to play the game.

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It also has consistently high reviews pretty much across the board.

It is a realitivly competent game with good features. It is attractive to reviewers that combined with most won't upset the boat in hopes to get more chances to review (early release) the games in the future. It is difficult to really bash a game from such a company barring complete failure on the part of the game company which Bethesda didn't fail, just didn't deliver what the hard core old game fans wanted.

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Bethesda is calling it their most successful title to date, and the numbers support that.

Yes, the numbers support this. It is also the first time they hosted the game nationally, and they had a great PR backing the game.

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So anyway my point it that there are all the indications that Fallout 4 is an excellent game; and my personal feeling is that it is the best game that Bethesda has ever made . . . so why do I see so much more negative things about the game on the various forums than I see positive things?   Are the others who love the game afraid of being called Bethesda Apologists?   Are they intimidated by the vitriol of those who hate it?  Let's face it, some of the FO4 haters are . . . violently opposed to the game.

I suspect many of the forums are forums that host the older games, correct? if so there is a difference even between Fallout 3 and Fallout NV as well. There are favorites among groups however the differences are much less among those games (and being very old and such less relevant) than Fallout 4. The way they portrayed the story and how they went about creating the player and such is a deviation from what was the formula that was part of the Fallout series. For one, you were married, had a child and the wife was a lawyer and the husband was in the military (not known if currently or doing some other job) this level of detail is absent in the other fallout games. This makes it difficult for people to create the rich stories that they had before and feel engaged in their characters in the modding scene.

I will go into some details below of my issues:

• I wasn't impressed with the body, eyes and such comparing to other recently released games and what could be done by modders afterward so I know they could have done better there. We now have a 64 bit capable engine and a new console which has plenty of power to upgrade the bodies and textures to a better level that they did. Look at almost any other game and their characters look better and they are also on consoles.
• The story I mentioned. Not liking it. It just kept on holding me back and I know if I continued to play it I don't have the same level of flexibility I had with my previous experiences with Fallout.
• It is much more empty feeling. Even Fallout 3 I had interactions (met Uncle Leo almost 3 years after starting the game) and others that I had missed. It was a more rich deep experience that I hadn't had with Fallout 4.
• the sims.. god don't get me on that. I felt so board having to search for the materials to get to finish even one task that I didn't even want to do being forced on me and wasn't even really necessary for the advancement of the main quest line.

There are others as well. I spend 62 hours and did the complete main quest so I really gave it the best review I could. Even with the new DLC available I haven't gone back. It is even loaded on my computer but haven't fired it up yet. I might do so with the Harbor DLC but then again maybe not.

This is a direct, simple non emotional reasons I give above. Was there fun there...yes. was I entertained yes, however not to the level I expected and not he ways I expected for a Fallout franchise game.

You are more than welcome to love the game. I don't want to take that away from anyone and I fully respect their love for the new game. It might just be a stronger more expressed response from those who bought Fallout New Vegas when they expected the same from Fallout 3. (If people remember there was some flac from the gaming community because of the differences. ;).

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WTF is going on?  Where are my fellow FO4 fans?

They are more than welcome here.

[Elerneron]

I suppose I can understand previous experiences coloring the perceptions of a new game.  I for one wasn't very impressed with FO3, it was okay, but I got bored with it quickly.  When FONV came out I fell head over heals for it and played it for like ever.  The Tale of Two Wasteland mod was the only thing to get me back into FO3.  I loved Oblivion, but I loved Skyrim more . . . I think I played Morrowind a bit back in the day, but at the time I hated first person games too much to give it a real chance.  I prefer any Fallout Game over any Elder Scrolls game, but that is because I prefer Science Fiction settings over Fantasy settings.  This might make it seem like I just like new things, but I hate The Sims 4, while I love The Sims 3 . . . I loved Mass Effect, hated Mass Effect 2, and thought Mass Effect 3 was meh . . . I loved Dragon Aged, absolutely abhorred Dragon Age 2, and am ambivalent toward Mass Effect: Inquisition . . . so I guess it isn't that.

 

A side thought, I just realized that my love affair with Bioware RPGs is on the rocks.  After the glory of Jade Empire, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age; their newest releases have all fallen short.  So with that as a yardstick, I guess I better understand where people who dislike FO4 are coming from.  I hope I wasn't offensive in any way.

[ritualclarity]

Not at all. You needed some point of reference and most places you get it from is hostile and mean to the game. I hope I was level and fair in my personal explanation of the game experience for myself. Also I experience some love for the older games and not so much for the newest and in some case a brand new game and not the older ones. The real key is properly expressing the reasons we like it. Sometimes there might be something there that the other person(s) never thought of.

[Jim_UK]

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Fallout 4 received record sales figures.
Now it could be that a lot of people bought the game that didn't end up liking it I suppose.  That leads to the question, since the majority of the sales were through Steam, and they have a guarantee on the game why didn't the haters return the game for a refund?
Then there's the fact that FO4 broke the record for the number of people playing a Non-Valve game on Steam.
Maybe that was just a bunch of people figuring out that they hated the game all at the same time?  If that's the case, that's quite a coincidence.

No one doubts that it sold a lot, with that level of hype it should of done, what people aren't happy about is that fact that they paid for an RPG and didn't get one, they paid for a Fallout game and instead got a poor mans Far Cry. Let's not confuse sales with quality, Justin Bieber sells a lot of records, McDonalds sell a lot of food, thats doesn't mean any of it is any good. The games problems take more than 2 hours to show themselves, people can't refund after that, if I could refund it I would.

Dark0ne posted the download numbers for the period between Skyrims release and the CKs release, the numbers were pretty steady, the numbers for Fallout 4 are on a constant downward slope, that is backed up my Steamspys player numbers which show that it's gone a from a massive high to around the level of Skyrim, sometimes even lower. Look at gaming sites away from the Nexus and Beths forums, the game is rarely mentioned and when it is it's seldom anything positive. 

 

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It also has consistently high reviews pretty much across the board.
Bethesda is calling it their most successful title to date, and the numbers support that.

It's the lowest rated Fallout game on Steam, below Fallout 3 and Tactics. 

 

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So anyway my point it that there are all the indications that Fallout 4 is an excellent game; and my personal feeling is that it is the best game that Bethesda has ever made . . . so why do I see so much more negative things about the game on the various forums than I see positive things?   Are the others who love the game afraid of being called Bethesda Apologists?   Are they intimidated by the vitriol of those who hate it?  Let's face it, some of the FO4 haters are . . . violently opposed to the game.
 

Why is it an excellent game? I've noticed those who say that never say why, instead they dismiss those with genuine concerns as "haters", classic post purchase rationalisation. 

[Anatriax]

2 hours ago, Jim_UK said:

Why is it an excellent game? I've noticed those who say that never say why, instead they dismiss those with genuine concerns as "haters", classic post purchase rationalisation. 

The story is good (once). 
It's prettier than Skyrim (not by much, but still).
With all of the downfalls, there is a lot of room to grow. 

These 3 things give me hope that modders will MAKE it a great game. 

[Jim_UK]

5 hours ago, Anatriax said:

The story is good (once). 
It's prettier than Skyrim (not by much, but still).
With all of the downfalls, there is a lot of room to grow. 

These 3 things give me hope that modders will MAKE it a great game. 

Hopefully, like I said earlier I'll give it a year and then come back, I'm not happy because I paid Bethesda £40 to entertain me, I didn't pay them £40 so a year down the line modders might do it. I only have myself to blame, I should never have brought the thing, the prerelease control freakery from Bethesda had alarm bells ringing in my head, it looked like they had something to hide or weren't confident in their product, I didn't pre-order because of that, what I did a few days way to buy it on the recommendation of a friend, he has since apologised. 

[Kendo 2]

The Bethesda.net TOS is now available.

My informed suggestion; don't upload there.

[ritualclarity]

1 minute ago, Kendo 2 said:

The Bethesda.net TOS is now available.

My informed suggestion; don't upload there.

Will check out later. thanks.

[Kendo 2]

The TOS has the wording of a Licence agreement for software, like they are anticipating two way electronic transfers though no software is mentioned in that capacity.  Basically they are wanting people to agree to something that doesn't exist or they have no prior knowledge of.  Very dodgy.

[Doublezero]

Fallout 4’s All New Survival Mode

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Saving with Sleep: Manual, quicksaving and almost all autosaves are disabled. To save your game, you'll need to find a bed and sleep for at least an hour. This means your fallback options are reduced, forcing you to be more concerned about what you are walking into and whether you’re prepared to handle it. Some fights you may deem above your level and decide to avoid. Other fights you may decide to go all in. Scouting and gathering information to make this decision can be fun in its own right. Also, when beds are your only means of saving, they become the Holy Grail. With that level of importance tied to them, you will scour the Earth to find the closest bed to your next chosen encounter – and in doing so you will likely discover things that you might have otherwise missed.

No More Fast Travel: Fast Travel is disabled. If you wish to be somewhere, you'll have to get there the old-fashioned way. In other words, exploration is now mandatory, exposing more of the Commonwealth’s secret gems. This will also take you out of your comfort zone, but encourage you to take advantage of the well-placed workshops throughout the Wasteland. And, while Charisma may seem less important to your immediate survival, there are certain Charisma-based perks that make managing your bases less painful.

Increased Lethality: You now deal, but also take, more damage. You can increase the damage you deal even further with "Adrenaline" – more on that in a moment. This makes combat more dangerous, which in turn slows you down and gets you to think about what you’re walking into. Combine this with it being much harder to save your game and suddenly each encounter becomes much more tense and dire.

Combat itself is also more strategic, because both you and enemies are more powerful; this means fights are about trying to use positioning and timing to get in your shots without taking enemy hits. This has an even bigger effect on melee players, who will now need to use their block/parry to keep themselves from taking damage during fights. While this change raises the skill necessary to play, those who opt into Survival know what they’re getting into.

Facing the Unknown: Threats, unless added by a Recon scope, no longer display on the compass, and the distance at which locations of interest will appear has been significantly shortened. You can no longer rush through the world, knowing what’s around the next corner. At the same time, you’ll likely explore even more, in order to ferret out any and all locations.

Adrenaline: Adrenaline, a new Perk that comes standard with Survival Mode, provides a bonus to your damage output and is increased by getting kills. Every five kills increases your Adrenaline rank, adding 5% bonus damage for up to an extra 50% damage at the max rank of 10. That extra damage is alluring. Adrenaline motivates the types of stupid decisions that always lead to the best water cooler stories. (Sleeping removes anywhere from 2 to all 10 ranks of Adrenaline, depending on the time you’ve slept.)

Wellness – Exhaustion, Hunger, Thirst: You'll find it difficult to survive without taking proper care of yourself. You must stay hydrated, fed and rested to remain combat-ready. Going for extended periods of time without food, water or a good night's sleep will begin to adversely affect your health, hurting your S.P.E.C.I.A.L. stats, adding to your Fatigue, lowering your immunity, and eventually even causing physical damage to you. This will affect every decision you make, because you have to consider your overall and ever-changing health. The drive to simply stay alive might push you into new and unexpected adventures. At the very least, you’ll likely find yourself hunting for valuable meats, triggering encounters with dangerous wildlife. But not everything you can consume is good for you: Certain items in the game now have negative consequences to balance out their positive effects. These counter-effects may make you thirsty, hungry or tired and possibly even hurt your immunity, leaving you vulnerable to Illness.

Fatigue: Fatigue mostly comes from being tired, but both hunger and thirst also affect it. Fatigue works like radiation, but affects your Action Points (AP) rather than your Hit Points (HP). The more Fatigue you've built up, the less AP you'll have for actions like sprinting and V.A.T.S. The amount of Fatigue you've accumulated is displayed in red on your AP bar.

Full article here: https://bethesda.net/#en/events/game/fallout-4s-all-new-survival-mode/2016/03/29/96

[fred200]

43 minutes ago, CPU said:

I can confirm that the Scripting language is almost the same. Same limitations, same features. Just a couple of extra new things (like structures and dynamic arrays.)

If you know how to do scripting in Skyrim, then you will learn in a breeze how to do scripting in FO4. Also the whole object hierarchy is exactly the same. (including "Spells" and "Magic Effect".)

But right now we are missing some global functions that were introduced by SKSE and are not yet available in F4SE.

My own prediction: The Fallout 4 Creation Kit will feel very familiar to people used to the Skyrim Creation Kit.

It will have Scene support, unlike the Fallout GECKs.

Papyrus will be the language, and the assets will use NIFs. (both enhanced, of course).

A lot of the variables will still be 32 bit (bah).

All in all, it will be a nicely enhanced Skyrim Creation Kit, with a lot of the same assets. Even magic...

I really hope I am proved right or wrong - soon. Like this month...

 

[Jim_UK]

A guy on the Nexus modders board who had good poke around it with XEdit described it as Skyrim with the guts ripped out, I don't know how accurate that is but given the rushed nature of the game I'm not expecting anything pretty. 

[fred200]

1 hour ago, CPU said:

Scene support is available. Including Phases, conditions, start and end events, aliases (and a couple of extra things that are not yet decoded.) --> Same as Skyrim. Probably a little improved.

Papyrus IS the language. The bytecode is almost the same. You can techically grab a Skyrim .pex file, change the header, and it will (almost) run in FO4. The language has some improvements, notable the ability to use Structures, and the Dynamic arrays.

NIFs are used. Their format is slightly different from Skyrim (more or less the same difference that was from Oblivion to Skyrim NIFs.)

All variables look to be at 64bits. But here I cannot be 100% sure because there are tons of items that are not yet decoded.

The game objects "Spell", "Enchantment", and "Magic Effect" are in the esm files, some of them are also used in the vanilla game.

A big difference is the new behavior system. That is not really similar to the one that was in Skyrim. Because the Havok tool used is no more 2008 but 2012. And this has some serious impacts in adding with ease new animations.

Well one big 32 bit limitation is prid and refid. One byte for mod index (255 limit...) and three bytes for ID within the mod.

[fred200]

29 minutes ago, CPU said:

That may not be true.

The part for the internal id is 32 bits (4 bytes) but no one knows how much space is for the mod index.

OK - someone with more time to spare than I have needs to set up 300 dummy ESPs and try loading them.

I would love to see the results - just not willing to do the work...

[Guest]

For me, Fallout 4 was nothing but an overly hyped game. Bethesda did an outstanding job on marketing Fallout 4, but fooled the hell out of many of us. That game just didn't live up to my expectations. And frankly it is sad. I among others like ritualclarity and K2 were on LL forums in the FO3/FNV section anticipated and talking about it forever. I won't lie that the trailer made me have an orgasm, but I tried to contain myself.

It's sad really, because I've said nothing but mainly negative things about Fallout 4 and for years I waited for it. In desperation of being bored of Fallout 3 for nearly 5 years on and off it, I bought TES Anthology: a series that never caught my attention. I was never into the whole TES thing, but I wanted to get into another game I could heavily mod as much as Fallout 3. Tell the truth I can't stand Skyrim and knowing that it will be my last Bethesda game because Fallout 4 just didn't do it for me, well, I dunno. It sucks because I was hoping that Fallout 4 was going to bring life back into me into making mods again. I never had and never will have passion for Skyrim to make my own mods.

All I can say is that my anger and frustration has to do with my love I had for Fallout and it being totally crushed with their stupid choices they put into that game.

Edited May 17, 2016 by endgameaddiction
typo

[ritualclarity]

Now that there is some fixes for some of the graphic shame that they gave us and some other fixes for the game itself it is getting more bearable to play. Barring Bethesda creating an awesome DLC the last hope of making this game more bearable to play is the modding community.

[Kendo 2]

What bothers the most about FO4 are the things that can't be 'fixed'.  The game engine, the outdated NPC and enemy AIs, combat mechanics, and so on.  By all rights Bethesda could have released the game in 2008; that's how backwards it is.

Secondary on my list are the things Bethesda did (or didn't do) with the game play itself.  It's terrible, from graphical settings like lighting and decals to the dialogue and quest lines.  ENBs and mods can 'fix' those things, but why do they need to be fixed in the first place?

The base line things I mentioned above are simply to get the game in to a playable state considering what other game companies are making and what they are capable of.  Even with those base things 'fixed' there are serious issues with the Bethesda/Zenimax licencing and the fan base in general.  Modding FO4 simply isn't worth the effort because of THEM.

A few years from now FO4 might be a decent game to play through again with a crap-ton of mods but I'm not holding my breath.

[ritualclarity]

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 By all rights Bethesda could have released the game in 2008; that's how backwards it is.

Lets be honest... wasn't Fallout NV and even Fallout 3 4,5, 6, and perhaps even 7 years backdated compared to the current games released. The body's where (are) horrible without replacers and indeed most of the entire game is horrible without proper replaces right from the start for almost any of those games. The game engine was actually outdated towards or around the time of Fallout NV and was by Skyrim already. The NPC and Enemy AIs have always been bad. The difference is they have been progressivly getting more "cheap" I guess the word would be on their content and depth of character development/Story. Even though Fallout 3 and Fallout NV was essentially developed by different groups they both have way more content (unmodded) than Fallout 4 does. The depth of character or world space is also better.

I see your point and it is ashame that they have this old engine and NPC and crappy AI but really think the problem at its core is the content and development. It just feels more a chore to complete many of the task and the little gems that you find is much farther between than ever before.

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Secondary on my list are the things Bethesda did (or didn't do) with the game play itself.  It's terrible, from graphical settings like lighting and decals to the dialogue and quest lines.  ENBs and mods can 'fix' those things, but why do they need to be fixed in the first place?

When considering what other companies provide yes I agree they can be fixed but should be in much better shape even if the game is being ported to Xbox and Playstation 4. Both game systems have way more power than before and having these issues is just bad.

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Even with those base things 'fixed' there are serious issues with the Bethesda/Zenimax licencing and the fan base in general.  Modding FO4 simply isn't worth the effort because of THEM.

And yet many still are modding away regardless. I suppose if there is a way to mod a game there will be people doing it.

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A few years from now FO4 might be a decent game to play through again with a crap-ton of mods but I'm not holding my breath.

It is better even now. Not to any point that I would be willing to recommend you revisit the game yet Kendo but better none the less. I have started another play through to explore another part of the story line (haven't decided yet) last one was siding with the Institute. However I can only actually play it for 1 or 2 hours and do a quest or two a day. Not because of time constraints but more so not as interested. Got some interest but nothing that makes me go " OH my god I can't wait to get home to finish X or Y in Fallout 4" I am however working towards clearing out some of the base content and getting my new character up so that I can explore the new DLC Far Harbor. I liked working with Nick before and think I might like this. Lord I hope it has at least some story. I will be so disappointed if it don't. It has some strikes already as it reminds me so much of Point Lookout.

[ritualclarity]

Well today ( I believe ) is when their "big DLC" has been released. I wonder if they decided to step it up a bit and make it a better story or continued with subpar story lines and quest.

[Karma199696]

I don't know FO4, never played... Just entered in FO world a few days ago with NV...  But since in this thread have been covered/quoted several game, i'd like to say my opinion too (hope you don't mind  )

 

usually i never buy a game as soon as it becomes available, i wait some time (actually a few years) to give the time to modders to do their fantastic magics !  I started playing the Sims 2 just a few week before TS3 was released, bought TS3 when they were already talking about TS4, started to play Skyrim in 2014, and so on...  And usually, after playing the vanilla game a couple of hours, just to understand the game mecanics, i start to mod them (heavily) with mods made by other people, since i never had the patience to learn how to do it myself...  

 

one thing i found in NV that i liked (even if i still don't know how much important it is in game) is the reputation concept !  What i realy don't like in Skyrim is that what you do has no consequnces !  You can be arrested for a major crime and (if you have Prison Overhaul) be shown around the city for several days, with averyone whipping you and "using" you as they please...  Then you are relased and immediately you are again the mighty dragonborn, the thane, the hero !  Or, on the other hand, you actually are the great hero, just saved the world from Alduin and Myraak (or however you spell it) but if you have high stealt/lockpicking skills, any guard you meet tells you to keep your nose clean and to stay away from locks !  That's so annoying and un-immersive in my opinion ! 

 

also...  If modders that do it for fun, for free, in their free time can get such awesome results, both in graphics and gameplay...  Why can't bethesda and the others who create and sell games do at least the same ???  Why they don't simply have a look around the net, see which are the most preised and downloaded mods to get an idea of what players want and try to give it to them, instead of relaying on the goodwill and ability of amateurs ???

 

Edited May 24, 2016 by Karma199696

[ritualclarity]

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also...  If modders that do it for fun, for free, in their free time can get such awesome results, both in graphics and gameplay...  Why can't bethesda and the others who create and sell games do at least the same ???  Why they don't simply have a look around the net, see which are the most preised and downloaded mods to get an idea of what players want and try to give it to them, instead of relaying on the goodwill and ability of amateurs ???

 

They can, however they won't. One thing is they are trying to appeal to the greatest audience and making the game as broad as possible. Another thing is they want the quickest and easiest way to get the game out to market. If something hangs them up... they delete it and move on. There is a load of content in Fallout NV that wasn't included because it was unfinished because they didn't spend the time to do it. Likely the same with Skyrim and Fallout 4.

[ritualclarity]

On 5/19/2016 at 4:48 PM, ritualclarity said:

Well today ( I believe ) is when their "big DLC" has been released. I wonder if they decided to step it up a bit and make it a better story or continued with subpar story lines and quest.

The DLC Far Harbor is a fully fleshed out DLC with many quest and options to explore. Nicely done compared to how I thought it was going to be. I have spent hours there so far and have much more to do. Still as Kendo would call it a game from 2008 (I'd say 2010 or so ) but at least it feels more full and has more options.

Some might like some of the options to help explain the past and why you can do some of the things your toon has done considering she would have just been a lawyer (as stated in the game) or he would have been in the military. How could he create a moluclar whatever that was, even with help? Also suddenly a gunsmith etc. Nice touch but I believe some will think it is a cop out from Besthesda after the fact of forcing someone to have the start they have.

[Karma199696]

8 hours ago, ritualclarity said:

They can, however they won't. One thing is they are trying to appeal to the greatest audience and making the game as broad as possible. Another thing is they want the quickest and easiest way to get the game out to market. If something hangs them up... they delete it and move on. There is a load of content in Fallout NV that wasn't included because it was unfinished because they didn't spend the time to do it. Likely the same with Skyrim and Fallout 4.

yes, the "logic" part of my mind knew that   but the gamer part of me refuses that too ! LOL ! i'd rather wait a few months and have them sell a better product then wait a few year to let private modders do what they didn't !!

[Kendo 2]

Has Bethesda fixed the overlapping spoken dialogue?